Curse

jazilla · Aug 30, 2010, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

That would make Wintergreen Weapons even more awesome.

yup and that was part of my reasoning in my OP. it makes the low req shields and special ones more valuable and not just collectibles.

Lillium · Aug 30, 2010, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

yup and that was part of my reasoning in my OP. it makes the low req shields and special ones more valuable and not just collectibles.

/not signed
I will never support game changes that make the rich richer. & Mia Clemons is about spot on.

Missing HB · Aug 30, 2010, 05:21 PM // 17:21

/not signed for same reason than guy above me

Playing Is Srs Bsns · Aug 30, 2010, 05:23 PM // 17:23

/notsigned
same reason above

Skyy High · Aug 30, 2010, 05:53 PM // 17:53

/not signed

The balance argument is idiotic; since it's easy (even free, if you have a PvP char) to get max equipment in any attribute you want, there's absolutely no balance issue here. Removing shield sets removes skill from the game, because it takes practice to know when to swap your sets.

The "I want low req stuff to be more expensive" argument is even more idiotic. GTFO of PvP.

Mia Clemons · Aug 30, 2010, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

they use something that they do meet the req. on. also, if its not a big deal, i wouldn't see people buying blue q8 shields for upwards of 100k all the time. it's standard pvp for a reason.

So by this same standard, it sounds like a profession should not be able to use other professions weapons either? so paragons are stuck with their crappy spears, rangers with bows, sins with daggers, and casters with staffs/wands. So having a secondary profession would be a complete waste of time, which means everyone should only have skills that relate to their profession. Is that your argument?.....

*lemming* · Aug 30, 2010, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mia Clemons

So by this same standard, it sounds like a profession should not be able to use other professions weapons either? so paragons are stuck with their crappy spears, rangers with bows, sins with daggers, and casters with staffs/wands. So having a secondary profession would be a complete waste of time, which means everyone should only have skills that relate to their profession. Is that your argument?.....

That's the most ridiculous straw man argument I've seen in this section.

Yawgmoth · Aug 30, 2010, 08:58 PM // 20:58

So you want us to need to waste even more storage space for even more shield sets? You don't like casters running with their high-end better looking max shields so you want to make them use the common Istan Armor 8 no req shields instead? Or Wintergreens as the only "l33t" option? Way to kill variety for absolutely no good reason, I don't see any "balance" changes here at all! Casters still get 8 armor +more from mods and /W or /P can invest some points to get even more armor. You're just making players have to get more shield sets, which is not any improvement but a major annoyance.

Personally I'm also not fond of the fact item descriptions don't show exactly how the item works. The entire community for about 5 years believed that the shield's armor get halved if you don't meet the req, and it's such a simple test.
The only update to shields that would make at least some sense would be making them show their actual functionality, so that players don't need to test themselves or believe wiki lies for years:

would look like this instead:

No functionality change, just more precise display of how it really works. So there wouldn't be a "problem" of characters not meeting the requirements for the shields they use - they clearly wouldn't be meeting the requirements for just a single mod on it.

This could be well applied to focus items but it would look quite awkward on all other weapon types (2 lines with 2 different dmg ranges nobody would recognize).

jazilla · Aug 30, 2010, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mia Clemons

So by this same standard, it sounds like a profession should not be able to use other professions weapons either? so paragons are stuck with their crappy spears, rangers with bows, sins with daggers, and casters with staffs/wands. So having a secondary profession would be a complete waste of time, which means everyone should only have skills that relate to their profession. Is that your argument?.....

umm not in the slightest. they would have to pour points in them to use them or get any benefit from them.

jazilla · Aug 30, 2010, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

So you want us to need to waste even more storage space for even more shield sets? You don't like casters running with their high-end better looking max shields so you want to make them use the common Istan Armor 8 no req shields instead? Or Wintergreens as the only "l33t" option? Way to kill variety for absolutely no good reason, I don't see any "balance" changes here at all! Casters still get 8 armor +more from mods and /W or /P can invest some points to get even more armor. You're just making players have to get more shield sets, which is not any improvement but a major annoyance.

Personally I'm also not fond of the fact item descriptions don't show exactly how the item works. The entire community for about 5 years believed that the shield's armor get halved if you don't meet the req, and it's such a simple test.
The only update to shields that would make at least some sense would be making them show their actual functionality, so that players don't need to test themselves or believe wiki lies for years:

would look like this instead:

No functionality change, just more precise display of how it really works. So there wouldn't be a "problem" of characters not meeting the requirements for the shields they use - they clearly wouldn't be meeting the requirements for just a single mod on it.

This could be well applied to focus items but it would look quite awkward on all other weapon types (2 lines with 2 different dmg ranges nobody would recognize).

i just think that to get any benefit at all you should have to meet the requirement of the item. monks that have no points in spear mastery get the full10% chance of doubling adrenaline while having no points in spear mastery. my original suggestion is that to get any armor from a shield you should have to meet the requirement.

Yawgmoth · Aug 30, 2010, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Don't you realise there were never any requirements to use a weapon in GW? No such concept at all. The only attribute requirements were always just for one particular ability of a weapon, that has always been the original intention of the devs, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.
For an even better example see the Prophecies Pre-Order weapons, like the Canthan Targe. They had a bunch of different requirements for different mods, none of them were requirements for the item itself.

Now use some brains and think what your suggestion would really do to the game, think of the outcomes.

Is it all just out of spite against all those VS+Torm shield monks? You want to kill all the variety? What's the freaking point in making them all use some crappy no req spear dropped from a level 8 mob in Istan instead?
Mo/W's speccing some tactics would still use their 16/q8 or 15/q7 sets, but if they want to go Mo/Me in HA they would need a whole new set of 8/q0 shields instead of being able to use the same set AS the 8al caster shields - WASTE of 8+ inventory slots.
Not to mention the incredible revolution in economy, lots of items would lose value a lot and my lots of Wintergreens would shoot up to 1000s of ectos. Absurridiculous.

This idea sucks like a black hole and completely nothing good comes from it.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Aug 30, 2010, 11:48 PM // 23:48

/disagree

i never saw this coming
a long time ago almost noone agreed with me when i suggested the full hero team, now people want it to make the game more fun and have some more freedom, like the 3 hero rule we have now
and here i see the other way around, let shields only give armor for the ones using the attribute, making something free... not free anymore

what the hell is wrong with that? i mean, i have 1 char i use for fun who uses sword and focus for bit energy, its no serious char
but i'd like to keep the years old tradition:
you get .... energy cuz you have no points of it, want more? get (more) points in it

plz, dont make the game require more, thats how it dies slowly right now
i cant care less about what happans with pvp, but stay out of pve

many people left, i hope you know why, its cuz the game requires too much, wont update anymore, and its all the same everytime again

if you dont understand, plz talk to some more people from other guilds, other countries and not in your friendlist

/notsigned (hope you understand why by now)

jazilla · Aug 31, 2010, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

Don't you realise there were never any requirements to use a weapon in GW? No such concept at all. The only attribute requirements were always just for one particular ability of a weapon, that has always been the original intention of the devs, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.
For an even better example see the Prophecies Pre-Order weapons, like the Canthan Targe. They had a bunch of different requirements for different mods, none of them were requirements for the item itself.

Now use some brains and think what your suggestion would really do to the game, think of the outcomes.

Is it all just out of spite against all those VS+Torm shield monks? You want to kill all the variety? What's the freaking point in making them all use some crappy no req spear dropped from a level 8 mob in Istan instead?
Mo/W's speccing some tactics would still use their 16/q8 or 15/q7 sets, but if they want to go Mo/Me in HA they would need a whole new set of 8/q0 shields instead of being able to use the same set AS the 8al caster shields - WASTE of 8+ inventory slots.
Not to mention the incredible revolution in economy, lots of items would lose value a lot and my lots of Wintergreens would shoot up to 1000s of ectos. Absurridiculous.

This idea sucks like a black hole and completely nothing good comes from it.

you are missing my point and being pretty rude at the same time. I think it would help the pacing of the game if this happened. If you would read back through all the posts, you would see an intelligent post about how much dmg mitigation occurs when you have 16 extra armor. Take that away from certain monk builds and you get 24% or so more damage with attacks. I think it expedites the combat outcomes. If monks(or any class for that matter) want to have that type of mitigation they need to spec points to the full extent of the requirement of the shield. The prices of items is secondary, and you know what? I really don't care about Wintergreens going up in price. I believe they were rewards for players. My main focus here is getting matches back to a reasonable pace. I believe this would do a lot to get it back to that. It's my opinion, and I wasn't rude about it. You should reconsider how you talk to people on a forum even if you consider my opinion to be a bad one.

Mia Clemons · Aug 31, 2010, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

you are missing my point and being pretty rude at the same time. I think it would help the pacing of the game if this happened. If you would read back through all the posts, you would see an intelligent post about how much dmg mitigation occurs when you have 16 extra armor. Take that away from certain monk builds and you get 24% or so more damage with attacks. I think it expedites the combat outcomes. If monks(or any class for that matter) want to have that type of mitigation they need to spec points to the full extent of the requirement of the shield. The prices of items is secondary, and you know what? I really don't care about Wintergreens going up in price. I believe they were rewards for players. My main focus here is getting matches back to a reasonable pace. I believe this would do a lot to get it back to that. It's my opinion, and I wasn't rude about it. You should reconsider how you talk to people on a forum even if you consider my opinion to be a bad one.

Hmm...it seems to me like your upset that monks have an extra bit of armor in pvp. Now while that would make anyone slightly upset, they arent getting that armor for FREE. They have to sacrifice having an additional energy pool (focus offhand). That is an additional 12 or so energy that they give up for some light armor. Now while i say this, i do see your point. Meeting the req for an item makes sense. (If you've never thrown a spear, you shouldnt know how to throw it like a master and hit your target every time). However, even if you've never used a weapon or shield or w/e, every person has some basic understanding of how to use it.

Shield: Big round(in most cases) thing of some sturdy material. Use: block stuff. Simple enough?

Spear: Long thin rod that has a sharp end. You throw it and hits things. Easy enough.

Wand/Staff: A catalyst for spells. You get the picture.

Even if someone doesnt meet the att requirements completely. It can be said that a character would have some understanding on how to use it. Which is why you dont get the full +16 armor unless you meet that req. I could say more but i dont really see the point.

/notsigned

DoomFrost · Aug 31, 2010, 07:39 PM // 19:39

This is why we have a cracked armor condition.

/notsigned

*lemming* · Aug 31, 2010, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mia Clemons

Hmm...it seems to me like your upset that monks have an extra bit of armor in pvp. Now while that would make anyone slightly upset, they arent getting that armor for FREE. They have to sacrifice having an additional energy pool (focus offhand). That is an additional 12 or so energy that they give up for some light armor. Now while i say this, i do see your point.

You don't play PvP, do you? Being in a focus set is in a liability.

Elektraaa · Aug 31, 2010, 08:22 PM // 20:22

In real life, anyone can use a shield. In real life, people trained in using shields, will gain more benefit from it. I don't see the fuss. Also, this isn't real life but whatever. Whole thread is a load of nonsense anyway. Weapon swapping is fun, and another skill to learn. No point in removing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

but its rewarding players with bonuses that they don't have to do anything for.

They have to weapon swap...

jazilla · Aug 31, 2010, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mia Clemons

Hmm...it seems to me like your upset that monks have an extra bit of armor in pvp. Now while that would make anyone slightly upset, they arent getting that armor for FREE. They have to sacrifice having an additional energy pool (focus offhand). That is an additional 12 or so energy that they give up for some light armor. Now while i say this, i do see your point. Meeting the req for an item makes sense. (If you've never thrown a spear, you shouldnt know how to throw it like a master and hit your target every time). However, even if you've never used a weapon or shield or w/e, every person has some basic understanding of how to use it.

Shield: Big round(in most cases) thing of some sturdy material. Use: block stuff. Simple enough?

Spear: Long thin rod that has a sharp end. You throw it and hits things. Easy enough.

Wand/Staff: A catalyst for spells. You get the picture.

Even if someone doesnt meet the att requirements completely. It can be said that a character would have some understanding on how to use it. Which is why you dont get the full +16 armor unless you meet that req. I could say more but i dont really see the point.

/notsigned

no i am not upset, my monk uses a few different q8/16 and q7/15 AL shields for various builds. i just think it would expedite the battle process if we dropped these mechanics. there was a wand back in the day that allowed you to attack faster and that thing was deleted. i think the same should happen because i find my monk and other monks using adrenal skills with 10% spear heads to be a tad powerful these days. I also don't want to see skills that a warrior could have the option to use nerfed because pvp monks are using them. this way we have damage upped without touching a single skill and we have adrenaline mitigated without affecting the professions that use the mods because they meet the weapon requirements.

With the above said, I don't mind a compromise in changing the system. you could always change just a few of these things. i just think this would go a long way in changing pvp for the good.

jazilla · Aug 31, 2010, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elektraaa

In real life, anyone can use a shield. In real life, people trained in using shields, will gain more benefit from it. I don't see the fuss. Also, this isn't real life but whatever. Whole thread is a load of nonsense anyway. Weapon swapping is fun, and another skill to learn. No point in removing it.

They have to weapon swap...

that isn't my point though. my point is best put in this example: I am a Mo/W. I have a Spear and Shield set. I have 0 points in tactics and 0 points in Spear Mastery because I am not para secondary. I have a 10% adrenal mod/+5 Energy and +30 health on the Spear. I use the 10% Spear mod and auto attack between heals. This helps to fuel my adrenaline for my defensive stances faster even though i have not met any of the requirement for the weapon. My shield mitigates 13% of the damage with 0 points into its attribute.

I think the weapon swap should only help if i meet the requirements of the sets i equip. As it stands I am getting tons of benefits without having to do a thing and this absolutely affects game play. If it didn't affect it, no one would bother doing this. It affects it so much so, I believe it to be an issue that needs to be addressed by making the changes I have suggested or some compromise.

The Drunkard · Aug 31, 2010, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

yup and that was part of my reasoning in my OP. it makes the low req shields and special ones more valuable and not just collectibles.

Wintergreen shields do not need a requirement, so if Anet were to actually implement your idea there would be a item in the game that has superior stats than others of its type. Since Anet has yet to add a weapon that has superior stats comparet to other skins, I doubt they'll even bother to think about your idea. Besides, there are much better solutions to balancing the game such as the skills on your bar.